Curse

Ollj · Sep 20, 2005, 10:58 AM // 10:58

So you decided to make a PUG, a team of random people never seen each other before, also known as difuculty level "hard".
However if you are ready to face a challenge you will be surprised by what you get and learn by good random pugs!

Here are some simple suggestions to get a new GW experience and to learn more about the game posibilities:

-> This way the challenge is to make the pug, fighting in it becomes a walk in the park 3 of 5 times.

Good pugs = Guild groups
Seen good pugs better than guild teams and "good pugs" worse than guild groups. THE argument for good pugs is to be open for new stuff, new combinations, a random strategy. THE argument for guild groups is to optimize the one strategy you play.

Patience and Freedom
Good groups need patience and time, this includes ~5-30 minutes to find a group and ~1-4 Hours of playing time in the group.
Everyone is free to leave anytime but you seriously have to kick impatient people.
The group leader has the freedom to kick anyone for any reason, or no reason at all.
If kicking someone it heps to say in team chat why you kicked who.
Everyone should have the freedom to chose their own favourite skills attributes and equipment!
suggestions > orders!

NO EXPERIENCED ALLCAPS SPAMERS!!!!!
A GOOD GROUP NEVER EVER INVITES PEOPLE THAT THINK THEY HAVE TO SPAM ANYTHING IN ALLCAPS: ITS JUST STUPID!
ALSO NEVER INVITE PEOPLE THAT CALL THEMSELF EXPERIENCED; OR THEIR GROUP AN EXPERIENCED GROUP, THEY LIE. EXPERIENCE IS JUST RELATIVE.

Rank Armor Prestige
Meaningless! 'nuff sayd!
Actually high ranked/armored players just kill ANY innovation in the game and newbies (also relative) surprise me all the time in a positive way!
Newbies pay your server, include them and be nice to them!

Make Mixed ballanced groups!
It just has ben proven 10:1 games that a mixed ballanced group is just better than a one sided group.
ONE player of a mixed group can destroy the basis of any one sided group.
Mixed group:
1. Every primary class is at least once in a group, using more than 1 attribute skill in its primary attribute.
2. No Primary Class is more than twice in a group, this includes ALL classes. 3 monks CAN make sense in case 2 might drop during the game AND if you have sacrificing necros or Frenzy Warriors, otherwise more than 2 monks are just worse than 2 monks.
4. No same attributes of 2 players should be above 9. This just means for 2 warriors, give both different weapon types and make one focused in tactics and one focused in strength. For 2 players of the same class, make them as different as possible.
5. Secondary classes compensate the "lack" of primary classes to make the group as mixed as possible.
You dont have to go trough all this. 1-3 are enough most times.

Team size is 8 no hencheman
Its not smart to go anywere with less than 8, sooner or later someone leaves, no big deal but its just plain stupid to go out in small groups unless you dont want to play for a long time anyways. All players support each other, that makes 8 player more than twice as strong, fast and effective as 4 players. Larger groups can stay more "mixed" for a longer time, too. Jou can just continue with less than 8 players if one leaves.
Hencheman AI is great, but they are always the same and always act the same, that makes them boring.

Advertising and Zoning
Say were you want to go, what you have and what you want:
"Final assault team Mo Me N W looking for R(wilderness) E(air) Mo(prot) *** "
Its not much to type and works perfectly!
Tell the team when you want to zone, zoning without warrning has 2 solutions:
- kick some of the lowest players.
- tell everyone to met in another district, the ones that wont follow are free not to do so.

No Paladins!
I hate paladins so much, they screw up good pugs all the time, just exclude them. Hovewer too often you have to pick one because nothing else is awailable and a ballanced group needs a primary warrior. If so RATE the paladin on this scale, its your coice how low you want to sink:
0. does it know his own name? (once i sunk this deep advertising "looking for a warrior that knows his name" to get a response)
1. does it reply to anything i ask him directly?
2. does it use mending?
3. does it act arrogant or ignorant or impatient?
4. does it use a fiery dragon Sword?
5. does it give a shit about the rest of his team?

merging groups and flexible targets
Players free for anything i like the most, however it becomes tricky when just a few team members set a target and if you merge groups.
Always keep the target up to date in the team chat to avoid confusion.
Dont merge with groups for only one player and kick half of the players that just joined, its not nice.

no voice cominucation needed
Vocie com is for guild groups, but in pugs barely anyone has anything to say anyways. The above rules make voice comunication in pugs unnecessary.

Lowered expectations
When searching anything special start with higher expectations and lower them if you find noone.

add your own...

cookiehoarder · Sep 20, 2005, 11:00 AM // 11:00

This is for PvE or PvP? Oo

If it's PvP it sounds like a guide for someone in American district 1

If it's for Pve it looks like a great guide!

Ollj · Sep 20, 2005, 11:02 AM // 11:02

both, you got it

Charcoal Ann · Sep 20, 2005, 11:12 AM // 11:12

/sigh
what does everyone have against Paladins?

how would you rate milly on the Paladin crappyness scale?
uses a gladius and stone summit shield.
uses knights armor.
has not yet called anyone a damn n00b.
will always ask which res you would prefer i bring. and if you want a tank or a dogged caster chaser.
i use mending sometimes but turn it off if there is a mesmer in the enemy group.

as my other chars i have had maybe a 50:50 arses to good guys ratio for W/Mos

personally i don't particularly like Mo/Ws in my groups (especially when i'm my healer). from the majority of my experience they are soloers who have little to no idea how to heal (and in the worst cases still have 55 hp).
they also have the worst attitude problems (on avg) compared to other classes.

Fantus · Sep 20, 2005, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Some of your points are very valid, others amused me a bit:

Some of the most experienced and best tank players in our guild are W/Mo's using a Firey Dragon Sword (yes, they come in non blank variants, too).

Pretty much _every_ member of our guild has 15k armor because we play the game often enough to have shitloads of money we don't know what to do with other then buying overpriced armor.

In your definition, we must be total n00bs, then.

Couldn't agree more about the people talking in all caps, though. I'd shoot myselves in the head before ever inviting one of those.

neoteo · Sep 20, 2005, 11:19 AM // 11:19

best thread in the forum

first time i see someone talking about the difilcuty level being direcly connected to making random partys , that means , the social part of the game , is a big key to the game it selfe ...

/clap

aron searle · Sep 20, 2005, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Very good post, but not the palidin bit.

Were not all rubbish.

Quote:

Everyone should have the freedom to chose their own favourite skills attributes and equipment!

Quote:

2. does it use mending?
4. does it use a fiery dragon Sword?

Quote:

1. does it reply to anything i ask him directly?

Grunt

On a serios note, what annoyes peeps about palidins is there insistance on rushing and agroing, which i never aim to do.

And ive seen plenty eles / necros / ect ect rush and agro and get the whole team killed.

Tactical-Dillusions · Sep 20, 2005, 11:40 AM // 11:40

I never join groups that tell me how to have my attributes or skills.
I know what i have to do in my role with any character i play and the people who oppose my skill as a player are just a phallus.

Infact, i have just got back from saving my teams backsides in the high priest alkar mission.
The leader insisted that i don't put any points into healing with my R/Mo. I went against him and i took breeze/heal party and told him i was doing so. It saved the day on numerous occasions.
Despite 1 person getting err=7 during a lag spike and 2 leavers, we finished the mission thanks to traps and heal party. I even ressed the entire team, deviating slightly from defending the priest.
The warrior on the team (usually branded stupid) recognised my skill amongst my vanity and thanked me for my generous contribution.

Sorry for seemingly going OT but my point is, i think a good PUG is composed of players who are skilled in WHAT THEY DO but also understanding the skills and capabilities of their teammates.
Knowing what makes a good PUG comes before actually making a good PUG.

Nice topic.

Makkert · Sep 20, 2005, 11:41 AM // 11:41

the paladin remark does not only apply to paladin, but to all players.
here are also some other reads on PUG Managing:
- 101 PUG management ~ IxChel
- PUG Management ~ by me

Blu Vein · Sep 20, 2005, 11:58 AM // 11:58

Ollj although I feel that this is a very well thought out post with insightful information, I also think that you can't always allow a broad blanket to cover everything.
That being said I feel that group size and diversification should be designed specifically to meet the needs of what you are doing (i.e. mission, quest, farming), and where you are doing such.

Now, I am no master or guru nor do I claim to be this is just my opinion and style of picking up pugs up until this point.

Gwenhywar · Sep 20, 2005, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Some things I try to follow when I need to fill a couple remaining slots in my guild group or form a PUG:

1) Talk to everyone before going in. It takes time but ensures they can read - which will prove crucial later.

2) If you ask someone a question, and they don't reply after 3rd time, kick.
If I ask in team chat: "can one of the eles please bring Ward against melee?", and one ignores me after 3rd question, and the other asks: where can I get such skill?, kick (sounds mean but - how competent are those players if they don't even know where to get one of the most popular skills for their profession?).

3) Wamos .... uuuuuuhhh, wamos ... be very careful.
- Do not get more than 2 random warriors - more will mean at least one of them will turn out to be an idiot (statistically impossible to get 3 good ones in row).
- A little interview can help to weed out the rare good warriors: ask what stances they are bringing (if you need them to tank), ask if they have a bow for pulling, check if the way they write seems coherent & shows they have read the questions other people asked.
- Fiery dragon sword USUALLY shows it's a newbie that still finds them cool, but not always. I have been in PUG with a good wamo that used dragon sword.

4) Ask your monks to coordinate their skillbars - you won't need 3 mend ailments or 3 hex removals, and you also don't need 3 pure healers - your party will need some protection spells as well.

5) In PvE: ask everyone if they have a res, and if that res is: a) res signet or b) rebirth if they are a Mo/ or /Mo (see discussion on that in many other threads).
In Tombs PvP: ask everyone (except monks) if they have a res signet.
Wait for everyone to CONFIRM they have it. 2 days ago my otherwise perfect PUG failed Hell's just because we hadn't reasked the necro if he had a res ...

6) Be flexible about classes - you most definitely DON'T have to have "2 warriors and 2 eles" in your party.
It is more important to get reasonable people who know how to play their class - damage can be done in many ways.
That, and the most fun groups usually are the most mixed combinations

.
Make sure someone has some kind of interrupt though.

7) If you don't have a real monk, take henchies instead of sitting in mission area for 30 minutes spamming "GLF MONK". They do their job just fine when utilized by intelligent players.

8) If you don't have real monks, ask EVERYONE to bring a self-heal - you know you can't rely on hench AI 100%, especially since they have no energy management whatsoever and run out of it fast - that will be emergency backup. Every class has some self-heal skills!

9) If there is an NPC to keep alive in the mission, consider taking some heal-other skills like Healing Spring or Well of Blood. I have done Thunderhead with no real monks, group was keeping the suicidal king alive with these 2 skills.

Navaros · Sep 20, 2005, 12:20 PM // 12:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ollj

Rank Armor Prestige
Meaningless! 'nuff sayd!
Actually high ranked/armored players just kill ANY innovation in the game and newbies (also relative) surprise me all the time in a positive way!
Newbies pay your server, include them and be nice to them!
No Paladins!
I hate paladins so much, they screw up good pugs all the time, just exclude them. Hovewer too often you have to pick one because nothing else is awailable and a ballanced group needs a primary warrior. If so RATE the paladin on this scale, its your coice how low you want to sink:

2. does it use mending?

your "rank" comment is completely untrue. many players perpetuate this ludicrous myth, that rank means nothing. that is completely wrong. the simple fact is that a high ranked player will be a great player, period. many people "hate on" ranked players simply out of jealously of their skill and ability to prove their skill for all to see via emotes. so everyone needs to stop hating on ranked players. if someone is an unranked PVE only player, then that person should be thanking his lucky stars if a high ranked player ever joins his party. because the high ranked player is a blessing to him and his whole party. and it is an honor and privelege for the unranked players to have the high ranked players in their party.

on to the "paladins" comment: there are many bad paladin players. by the same token, there are many bad players of each and every class. especially monks. once i adopted a process of questioning PVE monks who try to enter my party, i was shocked to discover that most of their skills and attributes are all whacked-out to the point where their healing is very weak and pathetic. yet for some odd reason, it seems that most people neglect to question monks and just "assume" that any monk knows what he's doing. hence, i'm here to say: everyone needs to stop over-hating on W/Mo's and start questioning monks from now on. you will be shocked at many of the answers that your monk allies-to-be give you.

as for your "mending" comment: nothing is wrong with using mending on a W/Mo in PVE, it's a fine skill.

Aera Lure · Sep 20, 2005, 12:26 PM // 12:26

Pretty good except for the generalizations. I have an experienced W/N that I've gotten compliments for in a number of groups. She hasnt yet been a W/Mo. Dare I even switch? lol. Not from the sounds of it here.

Players who are smart far outweigh any of the class/profession presumptions. I think if you chat a bit with who you recruit, before you enter the mission or activity, you are well served. Many W/Mo's are very good W/, and many are not. Same is true for any class. I just hate to see such a wide population not even get to the invite/discussion part of team selection due to reputation.

That said, I was watching a line of 9 warriors in the Grotto last night try to dance in sync. Maybe generalizations ARE good. ^_~

Gwenhywar · Sep 20, 2005, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

your "rank" comment is completely untrue. many players perpetuate this ludicrous myth, that rank means nothing. that is completely wrong. the simple fact is that a high ranked player will be a great player, period. many people "hate on" ranked players simply out of jealously of their skill and ability to prove their skill for all to see via emotes.

I have to agree with this comment. While, of course, one can be a brilliant PvE player without ever doing any tombs PvP (some people just dont like PvP, nothing wrong with that), someone who is at least rank 3 is OBVIOUSLY a very experienced player.

What is harder: to combat silly monster AI that always acts the same way, with an agro you can easily "get" on yourself, or "drop" from yourself? Or a team of 8 cunning real people that watch your every move and adapt THEIR moves to what you are doing? I feel like wasting forum space just explaining something so obvious ...

The only thing you need to watch out for: ask the ranked monk if he took his rebirth

I have to admit that after a couple weeks continuous tombsing (where monks most of the time don't carry a res) I had forgotten myself to take rebirth to a PvE mission

.

QuixotesGhost · Sep 20, 2005, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

your "rank" comment is completely untrue. many players perpetuate this ludicrous myth, that rank means nothing. that is completely wrong. the simple fact is that a high ranked player will be a great player, period. many people "hate on" ranked players simply out of jealously of their skill and ability to prove their skill for all to see via emotes. so everyone needs to stop hating on ranked players. if someone is an unranked PVE only player, then that person should be thanking his lucky stars if a high ranked player ever joins his party. because the high ranked player is a blessing to him and his whole party. and it is an honor and privelege for the unranked players to have the high ranked players in their party.

Not if he acts like God's gift to my party.

Gwenhywar · Sep 20, 2005, 12:34 PM // 12:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

everyone needs to stop over-hating on W/Mo's and start questioning monks from now on. you will be shocked at many of the answers that your monk allies-to-be give you.

Haha ... I have asked some random pickup monks what do they use for energy management ... many have no clue what I'm talking about

. No wonder, as soon as battle starts, they start pinging no energy

. While I do believe most horror stories about Leeroy warriors have been created from real facts, I also think that some of them have been told by monks that couldn't heal them because they had not learned how to manage their energy (and yet thought they knew how to play a monk).

SJG · Sep 20, 2005, 12:37 PM // 12:37

Rank doesn't mean nothing, it just means very little. It is a measurement of experience and time playing the game. You might as well say you can tell how good someone is by using the /age command, or even their real life age. It's just not a reliable indicator of skill or character.

Fantus · Sep 20, 2005, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

your "rank" comment is completely untrue. many players perpetuate this ludicrous myth, that rank means nothing. that is completely wrong. the simple fact is that a high ranked player will be a great player, period.

Not quite automatically.

A ranked player will be guaranteed to be skilled in playing GW, nothing more, nothing less. You can safely expect that they won't bring in crap builds. Which is a good thing.

But:

Rank does NOT guarantee that the player will be a nice person. A rank 6 player can still be the biggest jerk in the world (and some of them ARE). It does NOT guarantee that the player will actually care for the party. A ranked player is NOT automatically a blessing for the party. But they COULD be.

aron searle · Sep 20, 2005, 12:42 PM // 12:42

Quote:

and it is an honor and privelege for the unranked players to have the high ranked players in their party.

May i kiss your feet oh great one.

Gwenhywar · Sep 20, 2005, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuixotesGhost

Not if he acts like God's gift to my party.

Definitely not ... but then, often it's some of the newbies that start lecturing the experienced player because he's doing something that they simply don't understand maybe.

For example, my monk has been bashed on for wielding a fire wand. Eh? Now, what exactly is wrong with a monk wielding a +5 energy wand from Nolani collector?

Not like she's supposed to kill things with her stick (and I have another wand to switch to in case I do).
Or someone started lecturing me how bad it is to take lifebonds to Furnace, BECAUSE OF RUST. Right ...
I tried doing Droknar's titan quest a few days ago - the warrior was always at the back of the party, and the eles rushing forward and getting all agro (and often dying, of course). When me and my guildie tried to get things sorted out, we were called noobs. Hmm - I don't usually leave parties, but that time I did, got another group, completed the quest, completed the next one - and an hour later got a message from someone: "you n000b we completed the quest you looser!!!!1111". I completed 2 meanwhile, with a group where I had FUN because people didn't behave like headless chicken.

I don't mind if someone is a little arrogant because they are GOOD. I do mind though if people have no clue, yet are so full of themselves they ignore what other party members are saying.